Yep- you do pay for convenience! 😂

There's also OpenStack, which is an opinionated Kubernetes based on Redhat, there's a pdf guide for development of a small vert.x app on it in their docs @cedric. But then there's also the simple one machine docker compose and docker machine deployment if no orchestration or scaling is needed...

And, like I said swarm is much lighter than Kubernetes and is even working on an integration with it..

I'm too opinionated myself to use opinionated frameworks

@m Putting me personal feelings about Spring aside, I think Spring Boot is a very safe bet to build any kind of web or non web app

@cedric I share the same feeling, it's just that I cannot validate this by finding startups picking up spring boot. they still go for django and rails.

Not what I see

Django and Rails are more the exception than the rule. Any technical cofounder who understands a bit about their job will not pick Python or Ruby to build their stack

I'd love to see some user facing examples.

Most of the startups I see around and/or talk to pick the JVM (with node pretty popular too)

well, their reasons is that those languages are easier to iterate faster, specially when you're an startup and do not know which direction you are heading to.

These are false reasons

hence why I said “if they know about their job”

Anyone who still thinks it’s faster to prototype with Python or Ruby is still living in the early 2000s

Nothing I can disclose, just sharing general impressions. I’m just a random dude on the Internet.

The reality is that if you start with Python/Ruby, either you never make it as a start up so it doesn’t matter, or your start up succeeds and you will face a massive rewrite to a faster stack within five years

or you’re Facebook and you double down on PHP

look, I agree with you. it's just that I need to convince others in the team with validation, and it is tough to find examples of startups picking up boot.

why limit your search to startups though?

The choice should be dictated by technical requirements (what a good CTO would do) and not flavor of the month popularity (what a bad CTO would do)

because we are not enterprise.

the size of your company shouldn't really matter when making tech decisions though

I would disagree with that 🙂 surely we do not need google's big table for example.

well yeah obviously 😛 but even though "Spring" sounds scary, it's far from being non-practical for a small company

i can understand java ee sounds scary (sorry, jakarta ee 😂) but why does spring “sound scary”?

because people believe everything they read in some dude's blog 6 years ago but won't take an hour to try it out for themselves

Work at a startup, use Dropwizard (almost the same as spring boot) Our entire startup development team agrees the Java/Kotlin codebase is easier to work with and faster to iterate in the the other app we have (which is node). Nothing about the modern Java web stack (Spring or Dropwizard) is enterprise specific

It also runs circles around our node app performance wise

Yes node is taking longer to die than I expected, but I’m pretty sure the JVM stack approach will outlive it

https://twitter.com/phillip_webb/status/758824415547109376?