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dumb thought, please disregard, etc… But the only valid argument (imo) I hear against Kotlin vs Java...
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a
dumb thought, please disregard, etc… But the only valid argument (imo) I hear against Kotlin vs Java is the JetBrains ownership. Would it be a good idea to have Kotlin + IntelliJ CE be owned by some sort of stand-alone foundation, to completely invalidate that argument?
v
a
interesting 😄 thanks for googling that for me!
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I suppose Jetbrains could pull the rug under peoples feet and decide to discontinue IntelliJ CE…
(and I suppose people who want to continue using Java can always make up an argument that sounds smart)
v
I suppose Jetbrains could pull the rug under peoples feet and decide to discontinue IntelliJ CE…
Of course they could, it is their product. Quite unlikely though imho. And you are anytime free to develop an alternative. 🙂
a
true, but if you’re a team of 20 devs then choosing a tech where you feel you risk having to make your own IDE might not be ideal 😄
v
As CE is open source, you could even base your alternative on IJ CE 🙂
h
IntelliJ CE is open source, and Google uses this basis for Android studio. You could also fork IntelliJ CE and build it.
v
And given the widespread use of Kotlin, there would probably some group stepping up and maintaining a fork if CE is really not provided anymore.
Besides that, IJ Ultimate is always worth the 120 € per year. 🙂
a
(I can’t believe I’m sort of arguing that a tech owned by Oracle is more open and has less risk than tech owned by JetBrains)
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v
Also Java is open source and even with a copy-left license and so not particularly strongly owned by Oracle. They might own some trademarks, but not the language, and the whole code is open source too.
a
thanks for all the input folks, really helpful! 😄
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g
BTW. Kotlin is the preferred language to develop android apps. So, I think that so fast nobody is discontinuing kotlin. Google would ‘strongly advice against it’, I suppose.
a
interesting insight from the person who is my reference to “Kotlin is lock-in”. He maintains lots of legacy stuff, and generally wants to avoid anything that’s in practice locked to one IDE, even though it’s open source etc. For example, he maintains an Oracle Designer setup. Not fun 🙂 And he points out that the attitude of supporting non-JetBrains editors is lacking https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/official-support-for-visual-studio-code/8242
c
Consider that even if JB discontinues IJ-CE (which they definitely won’t, because it’s their funnel into the well-worth-it paid version), Google still maintains Android Studio and will keep that as an option or provide their own free alternative, because they need Kotlin for Android as much as JB needs it for IJ. You also have the same kind of issue with Gradle. Basically, you’re not going to eliminate all risk from your team, and it’s not worth it to think of all the hypothetical scenarios that would impact your team. Anything that’s free isn’t really free, because it needs to be funded by something. Whether thats the IJ and Gradle “freemium” model, Google’s model of selling the peripheral services, or donations to open-source projects, the right way to look at it is what the maintainers gain by offering it for free, and how likely is it that it will go away. If a company is still getting something by offering their product for free, you can be reasonably sure it will stick around for a while. In the end, the best way to ensure your favorite tools stick around is to make sure you say “thanks” to the developers and find a way to pay them for their time and effort! Even a small amount to you (and yes, $25/month to JB is small when you consider that it earns you tens of thousands per year) can go a very long way in ensuring these things stick around for a very long time.
v
You mean 10$/month, right? 🙂
Nah, in $ it is even just 8.5/month
c
I haven’t actually looked at the prices in a while. The last I remember, I was paying for the All-Products Pack which was $25/mo (I’m using a company license now). Current price on this page is $16.90/month if you can’t afford the bulk yearly payment, but it gets considerably cheaper if you pay yearly and stay as a loyal customer. Either way, it’s well worth the cost. See if your employer will pay for a business license, but if not, it’s still worth buying on your own to keep JB in business.
v
And to have a much more productive and enjoyable life -:-)
Yeah, I just looked for the individual annual-paid IU license, which in $ is 8.5/month 3rd year on
a
yeah I’m totally on board with this, but I do sort of understand how someone who maintains lots of old “lock in” stuff that probably everyone said “no no this will never be discontinued” at the time is sceptical to embrace tech where the maintainers explicitly state disinterest in a more open ecosystem
v
The ecosystem is open. Everyone is free to develop a VSC or Eclipse or whatever plugin or even fork IJ and / or the Kotlin plugin like Google did. It's not the vendor only allows their tools and prevents you from developing or using an alternative. Butt imho it is also perfectly valid that they don't produce said alternatives themselves
Do you use some software that is only compatible with Windows? ;-)
Or use Word or Excel? Or any Google services?
o
Having to maintain parts of an ecosystem also creates a „lock-in“ risk. In this case, you’ll become dependent on the maintaining person/group. So the choice is really, who is it you’d want to become dependent on. And as I see it, JetBrains is one of the nicest companies to work with in the market, and going strong.
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