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Any recommendations for a new dev laptop? Smashed ...
# random
h
Any recommendations for a new dev laptop? Smashed the screen on my dev machine, Mid-2014 Mac Book pro and need to replace it. Can't wait 5-6 months for 2019 MBP to come out.
h
Given that your dev setup probably was aligned to MacOS, there aren't that many choices… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
d
Maybe it would be easier to just fix the screen on your 2014 MBP unless you want to upgrade now.
a
Or connect it to a external screen until mbp 2019 comes out
s
or just buy a refurb mid-2015 mbp
there’s no guarantee the 2019 mbp will reverse course on the more contentious changes made for 2016 on
c
@hudsonb Well if you want an Apple laptop, you don’t really have many choices. Personally, I recommend Windows laptops these days, they are superior for development over both Mac OS and Linux in my opinion.
l
@cedric Can you find me an alternative to BetterTouchTool that works on Windows for trackpad and keyboard? Until there's one, I'll stick to MacOS any day. Also, I hate that Windows still has pointless rules that disallow a lot of characters in file names, and has a short limit for folder nesting because of resulting full path name. Finally, I hate that virtual desktops are synced between all monitors, you have to move windows (pun unintended) back and forth to get the flexibility MacOS offers. Forgot that reinstalling Windows means losing all your data, while you can reinstall MacOS on top of existing installation without formatting. Oh, and I like MacOS menubar, which is searchable from the help menu, and shortcuts (more options thanks to both command and ctrl). Overall, it's not the computer itself, but the OS, that is missing real competitors on a UX level.
@hudsonb I have been rocking a mid-2013 MacBook Air (dual core i5@1.4GHz, 2.7 in turbo) with 8GB of RAM from 2014 to early 2019, and just switched to a second-hand Late-2013 MBP 15" with 16GB of RAM, i7 and a 2GB VRAM GPU (for 1000€), mostly for comfort. 8GB of RAM is still okay, i5 too if you avoid opening more than 2 IDEA/AS projects, and stick to one most of the time. Look for second hand market. I bought mine from leboncoin.fr in France, look for your local options, or ebay or similar.
h
Work will be purchasing it, and we currently have funds available but there is some risk of those drying up as we purchase other equipment throughout the year, which is why I need to purchase it now. I actually use it docked to external monitors most of the time, but need it for occasional travel.
Obviously if I stick with MacOS, MBP 15" is the way to go. WIth some of the recent developer QoL improvements on Windows I'd consider a switch but want something with high build quality.
@louiscad I've never used/heard of BetterTouchTool, I'm going to have to check that out
c
@louiscad First thing I do with a Windows laptop is to install the Windows Precision trackpad drivers. Brings these trackpads to the same level as the MacBook Pro ones
As for BetterTouchTool, AHK is generally considered more powerful and also harder to configure, but I don’t know, I use neither
l
Didn't know AHK, it doesn't seem to support touchpad gestures/shortcuts which I use a lot with BTT (source: searching "ahk touchpad gestures" on Google), but seems to be great for keyboard and automation related things, I may give it a try.
k
Forgot that reinstalling Windows means losing all your data, while you can reinstall MacOS on top of existing installation without formatting.
I find that Windows is now way more powerful in this. Aside from Control Panel settings finally being synced to a Microsoft account, you can now "Refresh your PC" (I think that's the terminology), which reinstalls everything in the 
C:\Windows
folder while leaving your actual files untouched
Linux is sadly a non-starter for me, because mixed DPI support is nonexistent (you can't use your HiDPI laptop display at the same time as your regular DPI monitor without setting both to the same DPI). And OS X has gotten buggier and buggier, and the Macbook went from top-of-the-line to god-awful in 2016. Around the same time, Windows 10 started getting really good. So I'm firmly in the Windows camp now
c
@kevinmost I often see that people criticizing Windows haven’t used it in ten years or so. I’ve been using both Mac OS and Windows side by side for over ten years, which is why I’m confident in my assessment that for me, Windows has become a superior development environment than MacOS and Linux.
h
@kevinmost If you use a current Ubuntu or Fedora you can use Wayland instead of X which has support for different zoom levels on different displays. (I'm writing this on a 210dpi Thinkpad with a 94dpi monitor)
@cedric I tried switching to Windows last year and it didn't work for me. Yes, WSL is a huge improvement, but there's still a lot of friction when you need to get data in and out (e.g. installing IDEA on Windows, edit a project inside WSL). Also, Docker for Windows is just awful and seems basically unsupported – even the simplest bugs don't get addressed (e.g. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/2950)
j
2017 MBP owner here, occasional keyboard issues (
b
making 
bb
when you tap it), overheats and black-screen-of-death when used on anything other than a table. Air vents are on the back on sides instead of in the middle or all the way through causing the vents to block when used on your lap. Due to the thin form-factor, the graphics card struggles when it's running very hot. 2018 one has similar issues apparently, especially the 6-core machines. I had a 2011 MBP before this one with 16GB RAM, it was getting too slow, so had to upgrade. Hopefully the 2019 one fixes this 2016-2018 mess Apple made, otherwise your options are second-hand 2015 one or non-apple. New MacBook pros are probably only getting released in September
c
@janvladimirmostert I have a recent MBP, with that useless and annoying touch bar. I thought it would be the thing I dislike the most about this MBP, but it's actually the keyboard. I wish they had kept the keys from the previous generation, that recent keyboard is so bad, still not used to it after a year of typing on it. At least with Windows laptops, you have a variety of keyboards to try and choose from.
j
@cedric i thought i would hate the touchbar too, but i got used to it, some of the shortcuts on there are semi-useful when i forget the shortcut key, but i hardly use it other than for volume. The keyboard i'm only getting used to now after a year of using it on / off (used an external keyboard at some point due to hating it so much), it requires a different way of typing - that low travel is very weird and and in your case, it's probably extra weird when switching between different types of keyboards multiple times a day. When i switch to another keyboard for half a day, it takes a bit of time to get used to the low-travel keyboard again, it almost feels like a key is stuck since it won't go deeper. Not sure if this lighter typing has any benefits for developers in the long run.
c
Your point about switching keyboards through the day is interesting. But I don't think it's a factor here. I easily adapt to the various Windows keyboards I use through the day (two laptop keyboards, on Microsoft natural ergonomic). But going back to the MBP keyboard is always a struggle, even after a year of use.
h
I use my laptop "docked" the majority of the time so the keyboard thing will only be midly annoying. Biggest concern switching to Windows is docker reportedly not working well on it, but also is there a viable Windows equivalent to Homebrew?
k
The MBP keyboard is awful. I'm typing this on my ThinkPad right now (MBP is my work laptop) and forgot what it was like to use a good laptop keyboard. The keys have actual travel and it doesn't hurt to type, because you're not constantly bottoming out. And the MBP keyboard is just so loud
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on a side note, I love Windows 10 from a feature perspective but it feels like a "hostile" OS. Like Microsoft is constantly trying to trick me into turning on features, sending them data, etc. I just went to uninstall a program and remembered that there's a bunch of pre-installed crap like this.
c
Yeah the preinstalled crap is annoying, but it's a one time cost to get rid of it. I also unpinned all this crap from the Windows menu
j
i've heard other people use the words "hostile" too to describe Win10, especially when it starts doing updates while yuo're in the middle of something
c
Agree that Windows forces these updates a bit too aggressively to my taste, but it's gotten a bit better, you have a wide window to update. I haven't been interrupted in a hostile manner in a while.
k
I ran a bunch of de-crap scripts but I'm always worried that they're out-of-date with how often Win10 updates. Clearly it didn't remove Candy Crush 🙄 . And of course I just shouldn't have to remove bloat and ads from an OS I pay for
j
Linux would be the perfect OS if a company actually fully supported it on specific hardware, i'd even be willing to pay for such support or for the OS / drivers.
c
I see that as the flipside of being able to buy powerhorse laptops at 2/3rd of the price of Apple laptops
k
I love the syncing features in Win10, how you can finally reinstall Windows system files without affecting anything you have installed via "Refresh my PC", and Powershell and the new bash integration stuff is great, but the OS does feel way more deceitful than OS X or Linux
yeah, that is true. My ThinkPad has 24GB RAM (user-upgradable!), an i7, a 1440p screen, full-size USB/ethernet/HDMI ports, a replaceable battery, some degree of water-resistance, and is lighter than a 13" MBP while having a 14" screen, and cost about $1500
j
Dell seems to be tinkering with the idea of supporting linux on some of its 13" XPS laptops, but not the 15" machines or the more powerful machines that i'm actually interested in
k
Apple hardware has really hit rock-bottom lately. I remember when the 2013-2015 rMBPs were the no-brainer premium ultrabook option
j
unfortunately yes, they seem to care more about form-factor, i'd rather have a thick machine with double the performance
c
Even touchpads on modern Windows laptops have become quite good. Apple's touchpads used to reign supreme there. The fact they made the touchpad so gigantic on their recent line is another reason why these latest MBP's annoy me
Now, I think the only main advantage MBP's have over Windows laptops is battery time
j
apple laptops have double the battery capacity compared to most high-end machines, so that's a plus
k
I'd rather have a thicker + heavier laptop that has better performance but... somehow, I can buy a ThinkPad at half the price of a MBP that's lighter and thinner and has a larger screen, and full-size ports?
heh, I'll give them that much, my T470's battery life does leave something to be desired
Apple's trackpad is still way better than the ThinkPad line's, but the TrackPoint is the superior laptop mousing device anyway 😉
j
Thinkpad's linux support is not great, Dell that does have great linux support, i can't get locally.
c
I always immediately install the Windows Precision trackpad drivers, so I can have all the three finger goodness I'm used to
k
Their Linux support is mixed. Generally the T line will have great Linux support. I didn't see anything wrong with running Linux on this T470 when I did run it. I just don't like any of the DEs/WMs available to me in Wayland, so I went back to Windows
h
Is there a viable package manager for Windows? Googling I see there is chocolately, but checking a couple things I use they are one to several versions behind
c
@hudsonb The one I've heard of is Chocolatey. Never used it, though, but it seems to be very similar to Brew
j
does the Thinkpad T-series have a model without a numpad? Not a fan of the off-centre trackpad and keyboard
c
Ah that's another reason why I prefer Windows laptops: the numpad. I want one. First for easier PgUp/PgDn navigation, but also games.
j
i prefer not having a numpad, so far i've only seen high-end dell machines offering that besides apple
h
Huh man have trouble picturing development without it, I'm constantly using that to switch versions of packages (elasticsearch, mysql, etc) for different releases of our undockerized projects
j
i can touch-type on the number strip at the top, the numpad is just in teh way
c
Oh yeah, I don't want the numpad for numbers, I never use it to type numbers. But for navigation, such a time saver.
j
in fact, i would probably switch to a Dvorak layout if vim supported dvorak via qwerty while leaving everything else dvorak. Using the vim plugin in Intellij, so navigation is just 
hjkl
or other vim shortcuts to jump around in a file
c
Dvorak seems so hostile to development, though
j
there's a developer-dvorak which solves many of those issues
c
As for vim... not hostile, but more geared for text navigation than code navigation in my experience
j
really enjoy using it, when not using vim

https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/images/dvp1.png▾

in an ideal world, laptops would have removable built-in keyboards - don't like the numpad, put a different keyboard in, don't like the low-travel, put a different keyboard in One can choose the RAM, CPU, graphics, hard drive size, but not the keyboard when customising a laptop, very strange
c
But that would increase the price of the laptop significantly
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j
can't argue with that
c
Ah? My understanding is that the less replaceable the parts are, the more manufacturers can cut down costs.
🚫 1
by soldiering and producing things together
j
on the high-end, cost is typically not a major factor, if you add 20% on top of a top-end lenovo, it would still be cheaper than a macbook pro though
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c
Oh sorry I misread what you wrote, I thought you said "Can't agree with that", but you said the opposite. Ignore what I said 🙂
h
Lenovos are a no go for me sadly, banned
j
Lenovo's build quality has gone down since they took over the ThinkPad from IBM, just look at the number of complaints.
at least comparing it to the original IBM thinkpad
h
A few devs at work use HP Mobile Workstations and complain about those being tanks.
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j
is the HP Mobile Workstation the ZBook? Looks like a great machine, might even overlook the off-center trackpad for that performance. Specs look similar to the Dell Precision which can also be configured with Intel Xeon or i9
I see the Dell Precision (15") with Intel Xeon Six Core (2.7Ghz, 4.4 Turbo) and 16GB RAM and maxed out graphics card with Ubuntu 18 pre-installed comes for $2800, still cheaper than the MacBook Pro
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k
@janvladimirmostert yeah, I have a T470s which has no numpad
I couldn't deal with a numpad either. I use 60% keyboards usually
c
60% keyboards and straight keyboards... not good for CTS
k
Agreed that straight keyboards are a nightmare for CTS. 60% is better for your elbow. Less reaching back and forth for the mouse.
I'd love to get a split keyboard, but every split mechanical keyboard is columnar (like the Ergodox, Kinesis, etc). There are very few split staggered keyboards, and it's really tough to adjust to a column layout
p
Hi Kevin, I was looking for a split non-columnar keyboard and eventually settled on Matias Ergo Pro. It comes with their own inhouse switches that are similar to Cherry Brown. The keyboard is absolutely amazing and cheaper than Kinesis or Ergodox EZ. It works perfectly on windows but for some reason suffers extremely from chattering on my Mac. That leads me to believe that Apple does not have well set up debouncing but I was too annoyed to dig deeper. Anyway. Here it is: https://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/ That being said. Columnar layouts make sense to me and I will probably switch to something like Ergodox in the future.
k
That's a great recommendation, actually. Wasn't aware that they made that. For me, full programmability via a custom keyboard firmware (preferably QMK) is also a big plus, and this board doesn't have programmability, so I might still continue on my search, but it's good to know that it exists. BTW, I've had boards with Matias switches for a while. They feel great and are very affordable. But up until I think last year, their switches were notorious for chatter. I had somewhere between 5-10 switches on my 60% keyboard with Quiet Clicks start chattering. Maybe Windows does some debouncing, yeah. But the real solution is to desolder those switches and replace them with new ones. You can buy Quiet Click replacement switches from Matias for pretty cheap!
I assume you have the old generation of switches. The new, retooled ones shouldn't suffer from chatter.
j
@cedric i'm working on a MacBook Pro and a Lenovo Thinkpad with Windows10 side-by-side now since yesterday, the switching from a low-travel keyboard and back to a regular keyboard is not great, once you go back to the MacBook keyboard, it feels like you have to learn how to type all over again and going the other way, i'm not pressing the keys hard enough. Windows itself feels sluggish and bloated, so much crap on there once you start it up for the first time, maybe it gets better if you spend a lot of time setting it up and customising it. I've now installed MS Remote Desktop 10 so that i can just remote desktop into the Windows machine and not have to switch keyboards the whole time
n
@hudsonb If you are after a laptop that works well with Linux then a ThinkPad T480 is a good option. Can confirm it works well on Linux Mint 19.1, and the battery life is good by Linux standards (around 8-9 hours mixed use with WFi on all the time). The ThinkPad has a dual battery system (Power Bridge), two USB-C ports (includes a Thunderbolt one, and one for charging the laptop), some other ports (including 2x USB 3 and some sort of enterprise SATA port?), dual band WiFi (equipped with dual antennas), good thermals (with the Intel Graphics version), IPS Matte display options (with some versions), dual internal storage (1x SATA 3, and 1x dual lane NVMe M.2), and can take up to 32 GB DDR4-2400 dual channel RAM (up to 64 GB unofficially) with both SODIMM slots being replaceable.
Linux support on ThinkPad's (especially ones from the T series) these days is good (Lenovo even provide official firmware updates via LVFS - https://fwupd.org/lvfs/search?value=t480 ). Dell's Linux support isn't significantly better than what Lenovo provide on ThinkPad's/ThinkCentre's. Lenovo even have Linux support on the repair side of things.
Some of Dell's XPS models (their flagship business laptops) have official Linux support.
The ThinkPad X1 Carbons (flagship business laptops) have official Linux support.
System76 offer laptops ( https://system76.com/laptops ) with Linux pre-installed.
j
Those System76 laptops looks like poor quality machines, they're rebranded machines from another company that specialises in very cheap generic computers
this is 5 years old, so not sure if things improved or not https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1pwwr0/system76_is_screwing_me_need_a_laptop/
n
Trying to find a blog post done by a New Zealander about their experiences with a System76 laptop. In the blog post they encountered serious issues with the laptop which included a faulty display showing some strange lines, and repairs took a while (had to be done in the US which is very poor). In New Zealand with the ThinkPads there is a official Service Depot in Auckland, and a authorised Repair Centre in Christchurch (managed by PB Tech). System76 shouldn't be selling laptops in New Zealand until they have a Service Depot in the country, and a New Zealand online store in place. Another thing to mention from the blog post is that the laptop had to be purchased from the US online store which meant additional charges were applied (NZ Customs fee, postage cost, NZ 15% Goods/Services GST). Lenovo by contrast have a official NZ online store which sells a wide range of ThinkPads, ThinkCentres, IdeaPads, and other Lenovo products which don't incur additional charges (includes NZ Goods/Services GST, postage, and NZ Customs fee).
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