And then... > There is no "copy" operation in p...

# random

[cedric]

And then...

There is no "copy" operation in pure OOP

[lovis]

his point is that there are no operations at all, only objects sending messages

[dalexander]

I’m not sure how you distinguish between an operation and a message, ie. 1.sendMessage(AddMessage(2)) seems like just a more verbose way of writing 1 + 2.

[cedric]

OP seems to think that OOP means creating objects.

[dalexander]

Oh, yeah, referring to the article, I would be very unhappy to see something like that in a code review.

[lovis]

yes it's not beautiful (and i would probably never do something like that). but the problem is not with creating objects, but with java

[lovis]

but I don't think anybody here should open pandoras box and discuss what "object orientation" means. Nobody knows anyway.
http://wiki.c2.com/?DefinitionsForOo

[roberto.guerra]

Stick to Alan Kay’s definition. Everything else was just sales buzz words.

[cedric]

No, nobody uses Kay's definition.

[roberto.guerra]

I know, and that is where it went wrong.

[cedric]

I don't see why, OOP is doing just fine

[codeslubber]

Because there are aspects of a definition that are unsettled or still debated doesn't mean you should never use the definition, c.f. Bohr's model of the atom. All models are wrong, as NB said, try to use the less wrong ones.

[codeslubber]

was it settled that that article was NOT parody? I was sure it was, especially when I saw the long nested chains of news.. but then I saw in comments he seemed to be serious.. which is scary…

[codeslubber]

among the nuttiest flat earthers in dev today are the ones who proclaim OO a dismal failure that ought be abandoned (almost always from inside some paradigm that is rife with objects)…

[dalexander]

I thought he was serious. Just misguided.

[codeslubber]

@dalexander if you were to try and turn that post into a parody of objects you would not have to change much

[cedric]

I dislike Kay's attempts at redefining OOP because it reduces OOP to something that's really not that useful nor insightful (message passing)

[codeslubber]

frankly it would read as a DI screed from the last decade in its current form, after the Spring guys decided that C++ could never figure out whose job it was to kill something that had been passed around.. 🙂

[codeslubber]

my favorite Alan Kay quote is I would trade someone who can bring new perspective to a problem for 20 IQ points, but yeah the idea that he invented objects or had the last word on them is silly.. and message passing was mostly a half-assed attempt to deal with the terror of nulls no?

[codeslubber]

program execution won't halt, your friendly collaborator will just say 'I'm sorry I don't understand…' 🙂

[dalexander]

I think of OOP as a checklist of multiple qualities. Something is “OOP” once it has reached a certain threshold, it qualifies. I think it’s too silly to say “Oh, this implementation doesn’t does X or Y so it’s not really OOP”

[codeslubber]

pulling responsibility for them up to compile time makes 1000x more sense

[lovis]

Uncle Bob's definition is the best 😛

[cedric]

@lovis For a second I thought you said crazybob and I was on board with you, but Uncle Bob... no thanks 🙂

[roberto.guerra]

Hehehe, yeah, I’ve noticed how toxic he is a while ago.

[dalexander]

Was never a fan, then he ranted and raved about how better null safety is a problem, which was… vexing.

[cedric]

Or how Swift and Kotlin are the wrong direction for the industry because they are statically typed

[roberto.guerra]

My moment of truth was when he was interviewed on a podcast around the time of the health.gov issues. And he claimed that everything would have been fine if only every developer in the project had done TDD, and if they were not allowed to do so that the professional thing to do was to quit. Just showed how ignorant he is about the complexities outside of code when working on a large project, and that external political(office, team and party politics) things influence the success or failure of a project.

[codeslubber]

I know someone who was arm's length from taht project and said it was a huge clusterbomb shitshow, there was not one team, and there was no communication, no one really had an overall view of what had to happen, etc.

[roberto.guerra]

Yep, the hardest problems tend to be human problems.