i don’t know about you but i feel the quality of t...

# announcements

[nfrankel]

i don’t know about you
but i feel the quality of the kotlin slack has degraded a lot over several months
• asking questions completely unrelated to kotlin
• posting in several channels to get more attention
• etc.
am i the only one to feel that way?

[Robert Jaros]

IMHO it just means Kotlin is gaining popularity. A good thing :-)

[nfrankel]

you might be right
but i would like to improve that anyway

[Dominaezzz]

It's also a bit harder to search.

[Kashif]

there are alot of channels created and to find the appropriate channel is bit hard thats why some people detracted to where to post question

[napperley]

These are signs that Kotlin is turning into a mainstream programming language.

[Ruckus]

I don't understand the point of this question. Are you gatekeeping the Kotlin community? Do you honestly expect everyone to automatically know the nuances of the culture here the moment they join?

[nfrankel]

when i was younger (yes, i’m not anymore)
we talked about “netiquette”
what’s the point about coming to any channel and ask a question unrelated to kotlin at all?
or posting the same question in multiple channels?
it has nothing to do with culture and nuances
just about basic “netiquette”
and interestingly, at the beginning, there was
and my feeling is that it’s getting lost

[Ruckus]

I see where you're coming from, but social media has completely changed what most consider etiquette online. While many of us had netiquette drilled into us on Usenet and IRC, that's not the way for most people.

From my experience, almost every tech based community starts with people already familiar with this, but as it gets more popular, it starts attracting people from other backgrounds. Most of those that stick around learn and become the early adopters of the next thing to come along. We all had to learn at some point (to my knowledge, no one has been born with netiquette built in).

We all made it blunders, and we've all seen welcoming communities that help new adopters learn and grow, and terribly rude communities that criticize lack of understanding. So far this community has been incredibly kind and helpful. I hope we can keep it that way, and not turn into a rotting community of "old timers" that criticize new comers for not entirely understanding a world they have very little (if any) experience with.

Climbs off soap box

[nfrankel]

not turn into a rotting community of “old timers” that criticize new comers for not entirely understanding a world they have very little (if any) experience with

that’s the reason i’m asking first if i’m the only one feeling that way
my feeling is subjective, and hence i want to understand if it’s shared
from the reactions and comments above, i assume that’s the case
then if most members are happy with the change - or can cope with it - like you, fine
if not, perhaps something can be changed without being less welcoming

[kyleg]

Your definition of “Kotlin-related” could be unduly restrictive, or merely determining that your question is not Kotlin-related might require a level of knowledge the asker might not have yet.

I had this issue with someone on this Slack about a month or two ago. The issue I had was with the de facto Kotlin IDE (IntelliJ) and Gradle (the de facto PMS for Android-based Kotlin development) not playing well together.

I didn’t know that was the issue. I thought it was a Kotlin syntax thing.

One person came and policed my question and said it wasn’t Kotlin related.

A day or so later another person came in and asked a follow-up question to me that actually helped me discover what the issue was. My problem was solved.

And I maintain to this day that since my issue was the de facto Kotlin IDE and de facto Android Kotlin PMS not playing well together (not coming from Java, I hardly understood this system at all anyway), it is a Kotlin issue. It’s just not a Kotlin syntax issue. It’s certainly a Kotlin development issue.

[kyleg]

And for what it’s worth, I come from decades of IRC use. Cross-“posting” is certainly consistent with established netiquette of the most analogous technology to Slack, and I checked the rules for this slack once and there’s nothing saying it’s poor netiquette.

The code of conduct/rules just say to ask where it’s relevant, not to ask in only one relevant place.

[nfrankel]

you raise an interesting point
that i disagree with
it opens the door to any kind of questions
because kotlin needs computers, you could ask any computer-related question
or asked purely android related questions because kotlin is mainly used on android
using your example:
no, this is not a gradle-support slack
i’ve never touched a single line of gradle and do all my kotlin projects in maven
now, if you have issues regarding the usage of the kotlin gradle dsl
that’s different
and i guess there’s a channel dedicated to that

[kyleg]

And I find it a bit ambiguous to say cross-posting is done to get “more attention,” which sounds like you’re accusing the people of mere attention-seeking behavior.

It’s probably done to get an answer. The attention is secondary to the actual purpose.

Furthermore, cross-posting is only really an issue for people who happen to be on both channels. If I have a question about some code that implicates Arrow-kt and Room, shouldn’t I ask in both places?

First, if I have to pick one, I might guess wrong as to whose responsibility the underlying issue is.

Second, if I do guess wrong, then anyone else going to the right one with a similar issue won’t benefit from me having gotten an answer.

The most efficient and netiquette-ish behavior is to ask both places and then when you get an answer in one, go share that answer in the other. If your answer was irrelevant in one channel but you got the answer anyway there, then consider deleting your Q from there, going to the right place, posting your Q and include the answer for posterity.

[kyleg]

@nfrankel I’ll address your points one at a time:

Re “anything could be a Kotlin question”

Well obviously if someone’s like “how do I turn the computer on?” it’s not Kotlin-related.

But if they ask “Hey Kotlin won’t compile this code” and you recognize it’s a Windows permissions error, the appropriate response is “Looks like you have a problem with your permissions.” An inappropriate response is “That isn’t a Kotlin question. You should have known that already. Go away.”

What’s the old maxim, be permissive with inputs, strict with outputs?

Consider my case: I’m coming from Python, TypeScript, Rust, C, etc.

Good for you that you’ve never used Gradle. But when you set up an Android Kotlin project using the IDE recommended by Google, it uses Gradle.

So if someone learns Kotlin first via Android Studio and then tries to venture beyond that, they’re going to be using Gradle.

And if that person isn’t coming from a Java background, they’re not going to be experts, and they’re going to think of Gradle as being part of Kotlin.

See what I mean by needing a certain level of Kotlin expertise to even know your question isn’t a Kotlin question?

[kyleg]

Furthermore, the “where do we draw the line?” argument you’re making is a continuum fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

I don’t think someone asking a Gradle question here is going to lead to any parade of horribles. Gradle and Maven are both Kotlin-related. They are the ways you handle third-party packages and other configuration stuff with Kotlin. If that’s not Kotlin related, then you’re basically saying “nothing but Kotlin syntax questions allowed”

[kyleg]

Actually I have to go take care of my sick wife, now, so I probably won’t respond to any more points right now 🙂 Have a nice night. Thank you for being a respectful debate partner!

[nfrankel]

yes, this is more important
take care

[ghedeon]

talking channels, #C0B8M7BUY is a pure trash 🙂. But for what it's worth, it was probably always like this, so not necessary degraded.

[jimn]

I'll address your points one by one:
• asking questions completely unrelated to kotlin
this was me. sorry. I can be tangental. I can't look at conversation about software in kotlin language from a totalitarian perspective of not having seen the iinfluences and what got us to this point as it grew up around me.
• posting in several channels to get more attention
also me. Sometimes in southeast asia I am truly the only person on any of the slack, and to the very vocal chagrin of others, I tend to see feedback about all things crossposting when they show up. (and typically im gone doing my other-timezone things.)
• etc.
me again. Playing devils advocate and challenging kotlin-as-a-nanny-language-for-the-masses ideaologies vocally

[Ruckus]

@jimn It was most definitely not just you 🙂. @nfrankel is taking about a growing tend he he is concerned about, not any one individual.

[jimn]

when ICO's hit in 2017 i left all public slack and didn't come back for a couple of years due to the scamming cat and mouse games. I don't see kotlin slack in any kind of maximum valley or even in jeopardy of falling into one personally.

[jimn]

if what you have to say is throwing pearls to swine, there is always the option of cultivating a private community

[jimn]

that puts you in the position of recuiting members politely and in a way that doesn't contribute to the problems you cite here