Hi folks, `specially girls`, I would like to ask...

# announcements

[GarouDan]

Hi folks,

specially girls,

I would like to ask you a question.

Sometimes I use Hi guys here, but I’ve seen that maybe some people feels uncomfortable with that.

So I would like to ask you, some of you feel excluded with this expression? Since I’m not from an English country I would like to know how it goes here

I asked my English teacher that is from England and he said to me:

Guys is totally generic. You can even call a group of only women, "guys"

And I have followed a course with an American English teacher that call us guys in her videos.

So, what do you think about it?

[tddmonkey]

You could what you have done here and open with “folks”

[GarouDan]

@tddmonkey, do you feel uncomfortable with this expression yourself? Sure, I can change my greeting, but since this is a completely mistery for me I would like to know a little better about it

[tddmonkey]

I personally don’t, but I think that if you can avoid offence, you should

[hho]

Please don't put this in #C0922A726, it's not kotlin-specific. For random discussion, there's #C09222272.

[GarouDan]

Sure, I will use it next time. I didn’t know this channel

[sindrenm]

I most of the time call each of my female and male friends “bro”. But that might just be me. 😅

[ghedeon]

1. iiric "guys" is gender neutral in English https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/19074/what-is-a-feminine-version-of-guys

2. Most of the time people here won't care, they're busy with real problems 🙂. Unless someone reported you, the fact that you're bringing this up without any reason is strange.

[sindrenm]

I suspect it's not without reason: https://kotlinlang.slack.com/archives/C1CFAFJSK/p1554982645284300?thread_ts=1554981859.284100&cid=C1CFAFJSK

[sindrenm]

Also, “real problems” are very subjective. Some might say that it's a real problem that women are not treated as equal in our business. 😉

[ghedeon]

Don't shift the gears, please. Inequality is a real problem. Innocent "Hey guys" with the following genuine kotlin question is not a real problem. How you put the sign of equality between these two is beyond my comprehension.

@GarouDan sorry, now I see where it's coming from. It's sad that someone decided to jump at you out of the blue. You did the right thing: Was polite and asked the kotlin question.

[GarouDan]

Thanks @ghedeon. In fact, someone in the spring boot gitter chat said something like this to me before also, and because of that I asked this question to clarify this to me a lit bit ^^

Either way I will try to avoid this expression and if possible, I would like to know some other suggestions that could be more neutral and polite.

I really believe that women should be treated with equality and respect.

[louiscad]

As said in the thread that brought this discussion, guys is androcentric, and I think that given the unbalanced gender in our industry, it's fair to make the effort to take the habit of using truly gender neutral ways to address to people. This is, IMHO, for the same reasons it might feel uncomfortable to be in a girls group as the only boy, and having the girls calling the group girls all the time, disregarding the fact that there's one boy, you.

I perfectly understand your stance @GarouDan, and I believe in your intent, so no offense.

The Kotlin community is a really great one IMHO, and there are very good values that many share about that project. So good, that I want to ensure we're welcoming to everyone with good intents, and don't make people feel out of place, adding unnecessary burden based on irrelevant things like your gender and the androcentric societies problem that would add to the fact that being new to a community and being a beginner is already a potential struggle.

I believe that making our field more welcoming to everyone, in every detail we think of, including in the way we talk to people like "Hey folks" is important, because that's the water drop that makes the vase overflow (and that's based on a literally translated French expression, my native language that is very gender centric, where cars are feminine, bikes, and trucks masculine).

I hope I haven't been misunderstood.
Peace!

[natansalda]

For me as a woman "guys" is gender neutral 🙂 I use it to my friends alll the time, no matter the gender. But it is really nice of you, and appreciated, that you think about things like that! Thank you 🙂

[sindrenm]

I'm with Natalia on this. All of my female friends and colleagues (and I work in a 50/50 work environment) in Norway feel that “guys” is gender neutral, not loaded towards the masculine. Also, in my opinion, this is not shifting the gears, I feel like this is exactly what this thread is about. I am confident that no one here meant any offence at any time, and I use “guys” and even “bros” towards all of my friends and colleagues all the time, never excluding or attempting to offend anyone. In my opinion, the intent is the most important and in more cases than not, that shines through. And again, I'm sure that no one here actually meant any harm or wanted to exclude anyone. simple smile