Language makes software, software is language. Kotlin is now the language of Android. Android is now...

# android

[dewildte]

Language makes software, software is language. Kotlin is now the language of Android.
Android is now becoming Kotlin, they are related by definition.
There is no need to have, or start, another software war.
Why can we not just ask the questions we need answered in the place that is most likely to answer them?

GRASP Has the Information Expert principle:

Assign responsibility to the class that has the information needed to fulfill it.

This slack community has all the information experts.
So it is natural for people to assign theirs questions to here.
Fighting this behaviour is probably futile and also alienating to its members.

[Robert Jaros]

But it's not a public place - it's JB slack. It's their decision not ours.

[kenkyee]

Ditto.. The existence of this channel and the others on this slack is so we can give feedback to jetbrains and Google on issues with kotlin on Android.
By making this channel mostly about Android, it is less useful to them.

It really is like asking about pizza in the wrong channel/forum....

[baxter]

Wait, there's pizza?

[dewildte]

@Robert Jaros Is it functionally private?
It feels pretty public, nobody is kicked or banned for asking Android questions.
Getting in was as easy as walking through a door. The invites are also public.

[Robert Jaros]

Still a door to someone else's property 😉

[dewildte]

You are correct but the reality of how this channel is used fights against it’s original purpose.

[dewildte]

We can chose to help people or just 😶 them, which do you think is more noble/humble?

[louiscad]

We can also think about other solutions.

[louiscad]

Both options you're talking about have their problems @dewildte

[dewildte]

The path of least resistance is to do what the compose channel did, and just embrace the fact that not all questions are going to be directly Kotlin related.

[dewildte]

No solution is perfect.

[dewildte]

It would be wise, to pick the one that helps people the most.

[louiscad]

I think we need a better onboarding and a re-boarding for existing members with a viable policy for non Kotlin content.

[dewildte]

Then don’t use Slack?

[louiscad]

Does it help the people that help?

[dewildte]

Policy is only as good as it can be enforced.

[louiscad]

I agree

[louiscad]

I never meant to have a policy that is not enforced.

[dewildte]

Most people will scroll down and click I agree to the terms and conditions. Then they will just ask their questions anyway.

[louiscad]

I think @hhariri should not be the only admin, and that there should be some trustworthy members or other JetBrains employees helping for big channels like #general, #android and #feed

[dewildte]

Perhaps they are going to build a proper forum.

[dewildte]

🤷

[louiscad]

Most people will scroll down and click I agree to the terms and conditions. Then they will just ask their questions anyway.

There are other ways for onboarding than having a wall of text that looks like Apple ToS.

We can invent/find something more fun.

[louiscad]

There's already a Kotlin forum, and also StackOverflow, but people come to Slack because it's a shorter feedback loop and better suited for informal discussions.

[dewildte]

Agreed.

[dewildte]

You just proved why it’s a good place to ask Android questions.

[dewildte]

Because they get answered.

[louiscad]

The problem is that some questions are already answered online in the public web (which this Slack is not part of), but folks waste all of our eye-time by asking it here anyway, and that turns off a bunch of good answerers.

[kenkyee]

So back to pizza.. What's a good Android flavored one? 😂

[hhariri]

@louiscad Hadi is not the only Admin. However, how/who is Admin unfortunately I cannot disclose.

[hhariri]

@dewildte Let’s assume tomorrow folks start asking general questions around Spring, or Hibernate, or X, Y, Z….All available to use via Kotlin. Soon, this will no longer be a Kotlin community but SO as Slack. So we should aim to keep the focus. Also, AFAIK, Android has its own Slack community.

[dewildte]

Correct but isn’t that kind of happening already?

[dewildte]

Go look at the compose channel they do not have a problem answering tons of questions that are about compose but not really related to kotlin.

[dewildte]

I don’t know why this channel can’t be like that.
It would be a much nicer place.

[kenkyee]

https://kotlinlang.slack.com/archives/C0B8M7BUY/p1618851505174900?thread_ts=1618784238.096800&cid=C0B8M7BUY
That's because Google and jetbrains are collaborating on Compose...

[dewildte]

Anyway not my channel, you all have fun sorting it out.
I’ll just sit over here in my unpopular opinion (🐧 ) box and watch it all happen.

[louiscad]

Android doesn't have an official Slack community like this one @hhariri.

Googlers and experienced Android developers are only found here (or in private communities) when it comes to short feedback loop discussions. The Android community is so wide and diverse that many experienced Android developers avoid places where the signal to noise ratio might not be rewarding.

As a 6+ years Android developer that has a bit of understanding of the Kotlin community on this Slack, I think there's really a need to change the rules a bit and how they are enforced, and I don't mean to allow anything Android, nor being extremely strict about it being about Kotlin. I'd be happy to discuss and maybe collaborate on that if you're open to it.

[hhariri]

I’m happy to hear proposals.

[louiscad]

Heard. Will think through it and send something.