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Ruckus
03/23/2018, 3:21 PMs
stan0
03/23/2018, 3:53 PMSo basically java is too broken to be fixed at this point? That’s what I got from the article.
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Ruckus
03/23/2018, 3:56 PMThat's not how I read it (it's @elizarov's article, not mine), more that Java should keep its current strengths along with its legacy, and let Kotlin be the future of the JVM.
Or, Java has too much legacy, so adding new features feels more like a hack than a language improvement. Let the improvement happen somewhere that doesn't have the same legacy and backwards compatibility concerns.
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nish
03/23/2018, 3:59 PMMy take on it is that Java language hasn’t evolved with the times.
It got stuck trying to backwards compatible everything. Kotlin is what Java 2.0 should have been
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thomasnield
03/23/2018, 4:26 PM@elizarov You triggered that guy on Twitter 🧌. I honestly think some folks have been jaded by Scala (and maybe Groovy), so are quick to dismiss yet another JVM language.
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rawtoast
03/23/2018, 4:30 PMInterestingly, there seems to be a small backlash against local type inference. Would be interesting to see how much it gets used…
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thomasnield
03/23/2018, 4:30 PMAt the last JUG I spoke at sharing Kotlin, I found it was effective to be sensitive to that fact. That helped get people's buy-in. It also helped to address questions about "well what's in it for JetBrains for them to be so vested in Kotlin? Why do they want us to use it?"
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rawtoast
03/23/2018, 4:36 PMA note about the complaint towards Scala’s interoperability with Java. Typically, unlike Scala projects tend to avoid Java libraries and use Scala libraries where possible -- hence you don’t hear much about it.
Of course, there will be times where there isn’t a Scala library.
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elizarov
03/23/2018, 6:47 PM@Ruckus Your summary is close to what I wanted to say, indeed
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@thomasnield It seems that Lukas has been bugged by Kotlin lovers for a while and became sensitive to it. I did not realize it. That was my mistake. We, as Kotlin community, should just leave Lukas and other people with similar views alone. There is a point where additional persuasion just does not work.
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s1m0nw1
03/23/2018, 7:27 PM@elizarov I agree, this quickly becomes counterproductive. I liked your endurance during the discussion with Lukas though 😜
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thomasnield
03/23/2018, 7:49 PM"Can't lead a horse to water..." and all that. However I always am interested in hearing why people resist change. Personally, I've experienced points where I'm too exhausted to learn something new and would rather stick with what I know. So I get people's resistance on that factor, although most will never admit it.
But one of the reasons I picked up Kotlin is because I was tired of coding, and liked the idea of having to do less of it.
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elizarov
03/23/2018, 8:08 PMThere are people who just resist change, but there are also people who tried switching to other JVM langs before and had bad experience. We have a saying in Russia which I don’t know how to translate idiomatically, but literally it means “One who was burned by milk now blows onto water”.
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cedric
03/24/2018, 4:24 AMThat article is much more a violent jab at Scala than at Java in my opinion 🙂
Whatever criticism you can levy at Java, the language remains incredibly strong and has managed to scale up to more than twenty years of technical challenges. Only C and C++ have succeeded at that so far.
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The thing is, Java's strength lies now more in the existing libraries in bytecode form than Java-the-language itself, which is why Kotlin has a good shot at replacing it within the next decade
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leonardootto
03/29/2018, 12:00 AMHow can i add this medium blog in my RSS feed? 🧐
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elizarov
03/29/2018, 10:32 AM3 Views