Hi everyone, Is it too much to ask from an indivi...

# hiring

[Jovan]

Hi everyone,
Is it too much to ask from an individual to do a given code challenge in Kotlin (BE). A lot of candidates are coming from Java background and all of them are willing to learn Kotlin but not for the challenge, they want to do it in Java.
I personally think that for a senior developer this shouldn't be a problem.

[alexey_gusev]

imho it depends on the task and how much time it requires to spend on it.

[Juan Rada]

IMO is too much, even being so similar to Java, learn Kotlin only to complete new position code challenge is too much time. Considering most of the people are already working when looking for a new job.

[Jovan]

But you want to learn it anyway, I mean I'm always learning something new in my free time.

[Juan Rada]

Indeed this is how I learned Kotlin initially, in my free time as a pleasure activity, but that is totally diferent to do it for an interview with a dead line and the pressure of being evaluated. I personally do not enjoy learn like that.

[Jovan]

Can you apply the same logic for another lang? C#/Python

[Jovan]

Lets say its not Java.

[Jovan]

Also I have to evaluate something that I haven't used for years.

[alexey_gusev]

the key thing here is that candidates are job hunting and not using their free time where they expect spend this very time on learning or whatever. you make them work for free, that’s it

[alexey_gusev]

if you pay them then it’s totally different situation

[Jovan]

Lol, I'm looking for Kotlin developer, why do you apply if you are not one?

[alexey_gusev]

a fair point 🙂

[Jovan]

And they are not producing something that I can sell or earn money, they are doing some work so I can evaluate their knowledge

[alexey_gusev]

this is a black magic of sorts to find the balance

[Juan Rada]

Yes agree, no point in applying for a position that you clearly do not match.

[alexey_gusev]

if you have many candidates you can afford dropping those who doesnt want to do it, otherwise you might need to consider some alternative ways

[Jovan]

@alexey_gusev agree 😭

[alexey_gusev]

if you force them to learn, ok, but then you evaluate their ability to learn and overall engineering prowness

[alexey_gusev]

give them some task to implement in Java to test the latter 🙂

[Jovan]

Exactly i do not expect them to be experts, but it's a nice opportunity to see how they adapt

[alexey_gusev]

then maybe you need to explain this to candidates

[alexey_gusev]

because if they are willing to do the task in principle but in Java then if they know that you don’t expect them to be perfect…they might change their mind

[Jovan]

I need to explain this to HR

[Alexis Manin]

Is it for a junior position ? Because in that case, It would be understandable that some candidates prefer to do th exercise in java : they can demonstrate their backend skill now, but they need time to develop their kotlin skills.
Otherwise, for a mid-level or senior position, it looks strange to me to refuse to work with the target language.
What server technology do you want them to use in the exercise ? Ktor ? Spring ? Other ?

[Jovan]

It is a senior position for Spring.

[Alexis Manin]

Personnally, I find it strange. When your have experience with Spring in java, it is very easy to switch to kotlin. And when applying to senior position, I think you have enough skill to make the (small) leap quickly.

[Jovan]

Exactly.

[alexey_gusev]

I suggest a simple experiment - do in a language you dont really know but it’s closer to the one you do, eg C++ vs Go to make some random pairing 🙂

[Alexis Manin]

That wouldn't be the same. I mean, if you switch to a non jvm language, you are required to learn a new webserver technology. Here, you keep exactly the same lib as usual, you just change the language. Also, Kotlin is far more closer to java than C++ or Go. Both memory and error management are close. Even the class syntax is very close. The leap is definitely very very small.

[Jovan]

Come on mate @alexey_gusev. Trust me I know the pain of learning new syntax.
I don't event consider myself a senior and I still think that switching from Java to Kotlin is not that hard. You have a ton of examples, you can even copy-past Java code and it will be translated to Kotlin.

How can I hire someone as a Senior with 0 understanding of Kotlin on project where whole system is done in Kotlin?

[Alexis Manin]

And the interoperability is seamless

[Jovan]

Also I'm pretty sure that my HR is not demanding regarding the submit date.

[alexey_gusev]

I don’t argue, @Jovan 🙂 , I agree with you that Sr Eng should be able to pick it up quickly, but trust me as a person who interviewed many devs it’s a psychological barrier when candidate fears to appear less competent. It does show you something as well about the candidate adaptability and self-esteem.

[Scott Kruse]

The role is for Kotlin position so your candidates should have Kotlin experience. There’s more than just syntax to learn to be considered senior kotlin developer imo even if you are well experienced w/ Java

[Jovan]

@Scott Kruse Valide point. I can't agree more.

[Cicero]

The dev should be tested in the technologies he is most comfortable with. If he is an Ace in Java, he will be an aace in Kotlin

[Cicero]

Problem is right now is complicated to get Kotlin devs

[Jovan]

It makes sense but you are not going to become an ace by being comfortable.

[Joris PZ]

I'm interviewing at least five engineers a week, most from a Java background with little to no exposure to Kotlin. For their second interview we ask them to do an assignment on a pure Kotlin codebase. Over many dozens of candidates, not one has ever complained or refused - if anything, they were excited to learn something new.

Also, we're heavy into Kotlin, so if we would hire them they would be working in Kotlin from day one anyway. Might as well test for it in the interview.

That said, obviously when assessing their work we take their lack of Kotlin experience into account, and we do give new hires plenty of time to get up to speed. But the readiness to learn new skills quickly is crucial.

[Cicero]

I agree that not knowing Kotlin at this point in time, in my opinion, would be a profile red flag. A mindset red flag

[Michal Klimczak]

in android - sure. but is that true for backends as well?

[Jovan]

@Michal Klimczak I don't think that should be the same for BE. Most of developers are on Java, but you can also find other languages. And that all is fine and cool by me. I do not expect that everyone should know Kotlin, that would be insane.

But in my case we specified that Kotlin is a must, of corse that code challenge will be on Kotlin. If you are willing to learn Kotlin and work with it why is the problem to do simple challenge on it?

[Jovan]

For me personally the red flag is having someone declare that they want to learn but refuse doing so at the first challenge. At that point you have to think, where do you want to be? Like do you really want to move on with new technology or you are good with what you are doing right now.
If you want a change, then sit down learn it as much as you can and then apply and test yourself.

[Cicero]

I know your struggle, I remember my Java to Kotlin journey and to get good it took a while, it's a lot of investment, personal investment. How much would it take for a person that doesn't do that herself?

And you are paying it.