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I understand the channel rules but because of them...
# hiring
c
I understand the channel rules but because of them, I can't advertise for my company. We do pay well (I know that first hand since I'm hiring) and proportionally to the value of the engineer, but these ranges are simply impossible to disclose since there are other elements to a total compensation (namely, bonus, stock, LTIP, etc...).
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c
you could list the salary range and note that there are other variables like bonus and the rest.
You could also do some calculations and come out with a monetary range equivalent of salary + those benefits.
c
There are other reasons why disclosing these ranges is not feasible for most companies, related to liability and also simply the potential problem of other existing employees seeing these ranges. As much as a lot of people claim that all salaries in a company should be public, doing so has a huge number of risks and drawbacks, more so than keeping these confidential.
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c
Sure, then you're right, unfortunately you cannot advertise here without breaking the rules.
c
I know. Which is too bad because this channel would be a lot more active otherwise.
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n
potential problem of other existing employees seeing these ranges
then you have other issues, not related to those rules...
c
No you don't, Nicolas. That's how things work.
n
thanks for the life lesson 🙂 here things work differently because we don’t need to deal with the crap that is held as a “standard” in other places
c
Well, arguably this slack instance is not for hiring people at all, so it makes sense that hiring part is quite specific. The rules of it and the drawbacks benefits are matter of opinion, so far most of the active users are in favor of the existing rules (at least it seems so, maybe we could do a vote in meta to be sure)
c
Like I said, these rules guarantee that only low paying companies will be posting here. It's unfortunate.
c
I've seen compensation ranges well above average posted publicly, so that's simply not true.
c
Or you will have companies lying on the upper range.
n
these rules guarantee that only low paying companies will be posting here
that’s your opinion i believe quite the opposite if your company pays well, they certainly will post here 🙂
c
Post a range of $120-$200k to satisfy the rule while the real range is really 120-130
n
it’s all about reputation it will work once perhaps twice and then...
c
Paint me intrigued, where can I see the position you're talking about? 🙂 I'm kinda looking 😄
c
Trust me they won't, Nicolas. I've been hiring engineers for the past 10 years, at companies from size 5 to 300k.
n
if that’s the case then i believe you have plenty of other channels to post in and it won’t change your hiring process
i don’t believe in “the more the better”
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c
Oh of course, we have no concerns hiring. I'm not talking about this.
Just trying to dispel the idea that disclosing ranges helps. It just gives the illusion of helping.
c
this is an empty discussion, there is no evidence from either side, only "trust me for me it was like this" from both sides, anecdotes don't prove or disprove anything. I personally feel that knowing the range helps, you feel that is not the case. It's a matter of personal experience for the time being.
When I'm hiring people I always disclose the range and I've offered and hired people on both ends of the range, I've also been hired at the higher end of the range disclosed to me by my current employer, so you see how I would think that ranges help 🙂
c
Well we can talk about that, which is more concrete: disclosed ranges.
c
I've also saved a lot of time by declining offers even before full on interviews when it was apparent that upper limit is below my lower one.
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c
You're at a company, in a bracket that $100-$120, and you're being paid $120k. You're at the end of the range, and your manager is telling you're not ready yet to be promoted, it's 1-2 years away. How does that make you feel?
c
Depends on if I agree or not, if I don't, I'll be off to the greener pastures.
n
I’ve also saved a lot of time by declining offers even before full on interviews when it was apparent that upper limit is below my lower one.
that’s my main argument no time lost on either side
c
been there, done that
c
Exactly, it will make you realize you're stuck and ready to quit.
c
I don't see anything wrong with that. If my understanding and values do not align with the company I work for, I should indeed quit for both our sakes, me and the company.
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n
@cedric was talking from the other side of the fence
c
But if the ranges are not disclosed, you know you can negotiate your raise every performance review and it's open.
With ranges, there is no negotation: your manager will tell you "Sorry it's company policy, can't give you more money"
n
he doesn’t want to talk about ranges because he thinks that some engineers might want to leave because of that
from my point of view just like “security by obfuscation” is no security expectation management by obfuscation is no management
c
You're missing the point, Nicolas. Public ranges are the exact opposite of that: they take away freedom from engineers to negotiate a fair compensation at each review cycle.
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n
i could probably write a post about that 🙂
c
Are you a hiring manager, Nicolas?
c
Oh, you're then confusing hiring range and promotions. My general understanding always is that those differ. Example (numbers are fictional but ratios aren't) I've hired a junior developer for say 50k/y the range I disclosed in the beginning was 30-60. He quite soon showed professionalism and knowledge growth which put him outside of that range, so currently he has double of the higher mark. Note, they never once had to ask for the rise or negotiate it, which I'm kind of proud of, just a tiny bit 🙂
n
no no they give the illusion of negotiation because in the end, someone from hr/finance will block any raise anyway
c
Another thing if developer has to renegotiate their salary it's a bad management practice in my book. I as a manager always try to preemptively upgrade my employee's compensation based on constantly monitoring their performance and professional evolution.
n
i don’t need to be a manager to know how it works please don’t use the “no expert” fallacy on me 😉
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c
You do, Nicolas. If you've never been exposed to how this works, from a human, HR, regulations, and financial negotiations, you don't really understand how this works. You have a very simplistic view of it.
If you ever cross over, you'll discover a very different world than the one you see right now.
n
thanks for your wisdom i’ll remember those words when it happens
c
Who put you in charge of the rules here? Can we get someone from jetbrains to comment on that?
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s
discussion aside, where’s the info on the job anyway?
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d
@cedric this slack is not meant for hiring. That's why the rule has been set here to prefer quality offers over quantity. So yes we miss most offers, but that's intended.
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d
Rules also promote companies with good values like Transparency, which is great.
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