I think we should remove this rule for a bit and s...

# hiring

[cedric]

I think we should remove this rule for a bit and see what the channel becomes. It's so dead right now that it can't get much worse

[Czar]

We could try, but we kinda know what it'd be, just remember all the messages that ignored the policy and got deleted or downvoted.

[louiscad]

Maybe the salary rule should be substituted by other requirements, like making it clear what the state of Kotlin adoption and future is in the team/company the offer is for.

[sbyrne]

Is there a reason for a posting to not include salary information other than they want to pay below market rate?

[rkeazor]

One of the main reason is because compensation is often negotiable @sbyrne

[sbyrne]

I assume it is always negotiable, but at least by listing a number or range I know if it is even close.

[sbyrne]

I guess this probably differs widely between countries and cultures.

[cedric]

@sbyrne Most companies never disclose any range, that doesn’t mean they want to pay below market.

[cedric]

We already covered how ranges are completely meaningless and easy to circumvent.

[cedric]

And yes, true about differences in countries and cultures. In the US, it’s extremely rare to publish these ranges, but it’s not uncommon to discuss compensation during your first contact with the recruiter, to make sure nobody is wasting their time

[sbyrne]

I think it is becoming more common to publish ranges, especially as we begin understand how much being secretive about compensation disproportionately negatively effects women and minorities.

[sbyrne]

I would be in favor of requiring salary information for gender/race equity reasons alone.

[cedric]

Being secretive about compensations has nothing to do with these topics, let’s not bring EOE into this.

[cedric]

I just want this channel to be more active and reflect more accurately the Kotlin job market. Right now, this channel is a dead town dominated by meta discussions.

[sbyrne]

What if it was allowed to post anything, but jobs meeting specific requirements got pinned?

[Czar]

not uncommon to discuss compensation during your first contact with the recruiter, to make sure nobody is wasting their time

the first contact itself is a waste of time for the potential hire if compensation is below what they would consider acceptable. It may not be a waste for the recruiter though as they may get some feedback out of it.

[Pere Casafont]

in order to prevent a waste of time, people who want to be hired could publish their expected hourly/yearly rate too

[cedric]

@Czar A 10mn phone call with a recruiter is never a waste of time, that recruiter might end up being useful for other positions or roles. Networking matters. I’m really not getting all this antagonism, but at least, it’s coming from a minority.

[Czar]

Minority report, hehe.
I'm fine being in the minority. You're right that networking matters, but 10 minute calls add up, and I daresay only a very small percentage of them ends up being interesting.
So let's agree to disagree here, we're both speaking from our own experiences, which probably differ a lot. It's not antagonism, it's an opinion based on personal experience, same as yours. Opinions differ, that's why they're called opinions.

[cedric]

I was referring to the antagonism to the idea of relaxing the salary range on the channel for a bit and see what happens.

[cedric]

The worst that can happen, we get a bunch of spam posts in rapid succession, we restore the rule, done.

[cedric]

I highly doubt that’s what we’ll see.

[orangy]

Anyone can pin posts, so it won’t work as a promotion for salary disclosure.

[orangy]

Let’s make a simpler experiment. Let’s allow @cedric to post without ranges for a week, and then he and anyone who will contact him for a position will share their experience with as many details as they wish/can.

[dalexander]

…I think we said we were going to let him do that as an experiment a few months ago. But happy to give it another try.

[cedric]

Uh? I have nothing to post, this is not about me

[dalexander]

I’m referring back to the discussion we had around September 30th on this topic in this channel. The topic keeps seeming to come up, and we talk about making a change because the level of actual job posting activity in the channel is pretty low.

[rkeazor]

@orangy how about we just let everyone post and see how it goes. This channel is dead anyways, and I really believe it's because of all of the channel rules. You do realize the only action that happens in this channel, is people liking or disliking ads based on whether it meets criteria lol.

[orangy]

It is not something I need to make a decision on. It’s a community channel, you can make a popular vote or something 🙂

[Czar]

Well, reactions to Cedric's post above could probably be seen as a vote, majority voted for the idea

[janvladimirmostert]

+1 for removing ad restrictions.
So many good ads have been removed due to silly restrictions. In many cases, people just started DM'ing posters, now they had to find out what the job spec was instead of just seeing it in hiring.

[Czar]

calling something you personally don't agree with silly is arrogant and rude.

[janvladimirmostert]

I think quite the opposite is true, policing ads due to it not following someone's personal standards is rude and arrogant towards the poster. Things don't work the same in every country.
But i'll leave it there, this is going off topic.

[Czar]

oh, but that's just silly 😄

[louiscad]

Why not make a new #hiring-with-salary-range channel, where job postings that have it would also be posted? I think what we're seeing that we have different point of views, and there's no such thing as one size fits all.

[cedric]

You don't solve the problem of a ghost town forum by creating a second forum: you change the rules of the first one.

[louiscad]

It's not making a new forum. It's just a second channel that would still be discoverable as linked in this channel's topic, and starting with hiring too. I think that would solve the disagreement that is wasting our time.

[seba]

I posted an opportunity 6 months ago, the only thing I received was people down voting, or silly answers who clearly didn't get that it was not a full time position but rather a remote per hour opportunity. Some of the answers were just plain childish. At that time it was only a 250 hs engagement for 1 Dev. Today we have a contract for a year long for 3 devs, full time, paying great hourly rate per hour. We had to find the developer somewhere else. So, in my opinion, the community in here is the one missing out opportunities, not the other way around, and whoever wants to take this a little more seriously, should consider this as constructive feedback. In the meantime, I wouldn't post another opportunity in here.

[cedric]

@seba Yup. Looks like we're going to relax the salary range requirement for a bit, so future posts shouldn't be downvoted for that reason any more.

[seba]

@cedric that's not the point, my point is that the community is not open to explore, I found it arrogant, and a little confused and entitled. Almost aggressive. So maybe there should be rules for the poster and whoever replies.

[cedric]

@seba I also agree with that point. I am probably overly sensitive about this for having dealt with years with the Scala community, so I tend to react pretty aggressively when I start seeing hints of similar toxicity in the Kotlin community. I do not want that to happen.

[seba]

Also it seemed that a bunch of the confused devs misunderstood the post compensation aspect of the opportunity, and started answering with sarcasms or in a defensive manner. That's a good sign that there is communication problems with them so better stay away from but not very encouraging to post again.

[janvladimirmostert]

Do we have an ETA of when the current channel rules are going to be relaxed?
Channel Policy still says the same

[cedric]

@janvladimirmostert Fixed 🙂

[janvladimirmostert]

The new wording is nice, it's much more inclusive now

[ghedeon]

I'm all for the experiments, I'm sure that empirically we'll find the right balance that will satisfy the majority.
I'm slightly worried about the language used in this thread: "toxicity", "agreessive community", "sarcasm" like it's something bad, "arogant sily rule". Kotlin is known for its practical aspect. Practical == no bullshit. I believe the same principle goes beyond its technical guts and actually applies to the kotlin community itself. It's the most honest, no bullshit community of doers, not just talkers. We trieve for scientific method: we observe, we formulate hypotheses, we test them. There was a formulated hypothesis that salary must be mandatory. It was supported by majority and we gave it a go. Now we test another hypothesis. That's fine, but calling the community aggressive or toxic for inforcing by that time the official rule of the channel?! We shouldn't take no shit from no one for that. In general, keep this hypocritical vocabulary in tumblr, twitter, please. The day this community becomes somebody's safe place — ­it's dead. ❤️